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Talk:Gold efficiency
Individual Items Is it necessary to list every item on this page? Emptylord (talk) 04:06, November 28, 2013 (UTC) : In my opinion, no, but I feel that way about a lot of the lists we have here. You could create a forum topic about it. Knives182 (talk) 23:52, December 2, 2013 (UTC) : Is it necessary? Well, no, but since this page is supposed to be about Gold efficiency, every item (that has any stat) has some sort of worth. And there is no reason to not put it there. ClariS (talk) 01:21, December 3, 2013 (UTC) Deleting I have hard time understanding the meaning of this article and its sections on every item article. Items are not bought because of their stats what they provide but because what they are build into. No one gets five long swords opposed to one BF as there are limited number of item slots and when selling items there is significant loss of gold. BlackSmith (talk) 16:49, December 2, 2013 (UTC) : The purpose of gold value sections is, more or less, to demonstrate how much bang you're getting for your buck. This is useful when comparing similar items, as it essentially tells you which item is the "better deal". So if I'm considering either Phantom Dancer or Zephyr for my ADC, I can see that Phantom Dancer is gold efficient by roughly 350 extra gold, while Zephyr is only barely gold efficient. However, I have to weigh that against Zephyr's Tenacity passive, which can't be quantified in gold because there's no base item (Long Sword, Amplifying Tome, etc.) w/ which to standardize it. : TL;DR It's a way to compare items to each other in terms of cost-efficiency. Knives182 (talk) 23:52, December 2, 2013 (UTC) : What Knives182 said. Also, even in theory no one will ever buy five long swords opposed one BF, but imagine if BF wasn't cost efficient (i.e like it cost 2200g for 45 AD while all upgrade still costed the same). All of sudden, every item that build off from BF is so much harder to get and will deter even more champions away from it because its build path is so horrible. Intermediate items does have a small impact on final build items, but it's really not noticeable because almost all intermediate items are good. ClariS (talk) 01:21, December 3, 2013 (UTC) Again, BftB evaluation is great if you have unlimited space or unlimited item attribute combos but it has little help when you can carry only handful of equipment and there are less than handful of valid item combos for certain roles like ADC. The more expensive item you get, the more bang you get. As yourself pointed out, its about what abilities you want. For Phantom Dancer and Zephyr, your statement is incorrect. I added the value for the movement speeds and Z gives 461,5 more bang for its cost while PD gives 578,25. Is Tenacity more valuable than 116,75 gold and ignoring unit collision? All of the items in the game 'are gold efficient' so ask again, what is the point repeating it on every item page? BlackSmith (talk) 13:24, December 3, 2013 (UTC) : You just demonstrated the point of gold value sections perfectly. By comparing the gold values of Phantom Dancer and Zephyr, you concluded that Phantom Dancer is the superior item unless Zephyrs' Tenacity is "more valuable than 116,75 gold and ignoring unit collision." :% movement speed actually isn't quantifiable in gold btw, hence my previous (correct) statement. Technically, you need to compare both Zephyr's Tenacity and its extra 5% movement speed to Phantom Dancer's ~350g advantage & its collision passive, but I was trying to keep it simple for you (since you seem to be having trouble w/ this). Knives182 (talk) 22:24, December 3, 2013 (UTC) Yesss. I demonstrated that a unique or rare perks in a item have value that can't be substituted and basic abilities found in items already make them cost effective. Every item page has already huge block eaten by the items information that is then repeated by this gold efficiency block and in this page. I also demonstrated that every item in the game is gold efficient and repeating it on every page is pointless. A couple points that is yet been dodged. Your personal insult is against wiki etiquette and noted. On what basis MS% can not be quantifiable? 325 is the slowest champion movement speed and one percent of that is 3,25. If Boots of Speed is used for reference point then one point of movement speed is worth 3,25*13 = 42,25 gold. With higher movement speed the value is higher but the minimum value is established per MS%. BlackSmith (talk) 12:49, December 4, 2013 (UTC) : I really don't know how else to explain this to you. That most/all high-tier items are gold-efficient doesn't make it irrelevant; it's in comparing HOW gold-efficient one item is to another that the stat is useful. And if you honestly think gold value sections are cluttered & useless already, why are you adding MORE info to them? : As for % movement speed, if ClariS' explanation on your talk page isn't enough, consider that using the slowest champion movement speed as a basis is only accurate for that champion. We don't base AD values off the lowest champion attack damage. Also, flat & percent bonuses stack differently, so you can't derive one's value from the other. This is why we don't have a gold value for % magic pen, either. : Finally, I'm genuinely not trying to insult you. In fact, I think I've been pretty polite, & I've definitely taken a lot of time trying to explain these things to you, which no one else seems to have such trouble understanding. You have to realize, though, that people being nice to you does NOT necessarily equal you getting what you want, which sometimes just isn't going to happen. This is one of those times. Knives182 (talk) 23:31, December 4, 2013 (UTC) Okay, let's see if I can hit most of these points that are supposed to be discussed that you brought up about and let me attempt to explain the reasons. "Repetition of Gold Value on item pages (a.k.a why is it repeated on every item page)" # The first answer will be because, people like looking up gold value for a specific items. Before this site even started putting it up (or even made the GE an official page), tons of people already started giving these items gold values. When crafting theories or attempting to figure out an idea core item build, it's common enough to look at one individual item page instead of looking at one large spread sheet. # As the item page is about itself, there is no reason not to include it in the item page. It provides additional information about the item and helps the reader judge how valuable that item is as a whole. Saying that, I am highly against anything that suggests or claims that an item is worth the buy or not (as something like that should be left to the reader to determine). # It helps allocate how much gold is being split and gives the reader another indicator (something with actual number) alongside with just seeing the stats. People can already tell by just looking at the stats, but this just makes it even more simpler and aids them with that conclusion. # Lastly, if those sections didn't exist on the item pages, there will be a huge drop off in people who even checks out the gold efficiency page (given within a few months). There is only a few other pages that even mention about gold efficiency that is the gold page (the only one I know of). Outside of that, it's going to be hard pressed to find any mention of gold efficiency outside of item pages. A page won't get checked often if no one knows it exist. So ideally, having these section within item pages will help people realize a gold efficiency page exist. That's the only really important stuff. Beyond this, I just want to talk about somethings. "GE for MS%" # When I said base value, I meant, there is no first tier item that judge this with. And grossly undervalues % MS so I personally avoid using that stat. # Now for MS% being quantifiable. It's true that you can find its values, but let me state this again. We do not judge an item's GE value by its effectiveness. It does not matter if 1% grants at lowest 3.25 movement. If there was an item that granted 5% MS for 400g (making every 1%MS = 80g), we would take that as the Gold value over what you actually calculated. It's really that simple. The actual effect you get from an stat means nothing to how we determine the gold value. # If you start basing gold value based on how much effect it actually gives (in this case movement), then we get to the downhill spiral of argument of how to actually judge value that stat. It's not fair to just value it at the lowest movement speed even though there are tons of champion who gains way more that. # But lastly and the main point, as a wiki mod, I have been doing everything I can to further separate gold value from the actual effectiveness. Too many people take gold value as a item's effectiveness in a game and that is something I attempt to maintain a difference. By allowing the GV of MS% to be valued the way you did it, we run into the argument of, "Why is stat valued at this amount?". If were attempt to give an answer, then anyone could then use MS% as a prime example that breaks any argument we could make because we actually used the actual effectiveness of the stat to determine its value. Essentially, it just breaks our stander to judge an item effectiveness on a level that isn't disputable. "Six slot limit (because you brought it up)" # It is true that you cannot have more than 6 items at a time, but this limit isn't a huge issue due to a few reason. The first being, in the average game, you won't have all 6 items. Most games are decided within 20~30 minutes and by then, you will only have about 2~4 items fully built, which generally means the 6 space limit is usually not an issue for most people. It's only until the late game this because really noticeable. Secondly, you don't begin the game with enough gold to buy more than 3 slots and that is when gold value is extremely important. Those difference in gold value really matters when you don't have enough gold to buy what ever you want. # Not an argument but rather, I do want to point out that I'm against flat movement speed (a.ka. boots) specifically for this reason (but I'm in the minority here so I don't remove it for the time being). Boots are limited to only one so you don't even get the option to buy any other flat movement speed item. Just wanted to point that out since you brought up the limit thing but never mentioned this. Now that, I should write about. "Items are not bought because of their stats what they provide but because what they are build into. No one gets five long swords opposed to one BF as there are limited number of item slots and when selling items there is significant loss of gold." # Obviously, no one in their right mind would do that in LoL state, but that's because this has never been a valid strategy. There has been no point in time where the most basic item have been more effective than the higher tier items, so no one even considers doing this. But, if the opposite was true (as in, the most basic items were the most efficient while the higher tier were less efficient), you would see something like this happen. People would stack the lower tier items before they started building the higher tier items. And I'm positive about that because it's just simple optimizing your gold. # I give you two prime examples of way this statement (the long sword part) is false. First one, people did do something like this, back in season 2 or 3 (forgot which season but it happened and during when Doran blade gave 3% lifesteal). ADC would buy 3 of these before even considering buying a BF Sword and this is a Doran's item, an item that sells worst than a long sword and builds into nothing. Second one, Red Exlier first buy. Really cost efficient for 250g and it only last for 5 minutes, but yet completely worth it because it was so cost efficient. # Actually, in fact every Doran's item proves this statement wrong. Those item are only brought because they are so cost efficient. Obviously, the later the game goes, total effectiveness does trump over cost efficiency, but in the early to mid stages of the game, any lead you can get is important so knowing where and how much you get for your gold is vital. Well, that's about it.... ClariS (talk) 01:48, December 5, 2013 (UTC) Removing the Series? Howdy all. I'd like to propose removing the series near the top of the page. It strikes me as intimidating, & way above the level we should expect from the average wiki-goer. Seems to me people shouldn't have to look up what the "index of a sequence" is in order to understand anything here, especially when the idea itself is relatively simple. Said idea is also explained right above the series in clear terms: "how much gold the item should cost based off the stats it gives as well as its passive and/or active abilities." So the series itself is kind of redundant, & the article flows fine if the two lines referencing it are simply removed. Thoughts? Knives182 (talk) 00:06, December 13, 2013 (UTC) :Going to do this in a day or two if no one objects. Knives182 (talk) 08:17, December 30, 2013 (UTC)